Imagine a huge 5.9-liter, 550-pound iron-block V8 engine that makes less horsepower than a late-model VW Beetle engine, that regularly fails in such a way that it literally stops sending oil to critical internal components, and that’s so large and smothered with emissions equipment that servicing it — even in a gigantic engine bay — is a chore. You don’t have to imagine, because that engine is real. It’s the AMC 360, a piece of shit that defiled some of the most beautiful vehicles of all time, including the Jeep Grand Wagoneer, Jeep Gladiator, my 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle, the Bricklin SV-1, and many more. Let’s discuss this shameful bit of American Motors Corporation history.
[Before I get started, allow me to just vent for a moment. I spent all of Sunday trying to get my 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle’s replacement AMC V8 engine running. Should I have been editing, writing, answering emails, researching, and hiring? Yes. But instead I was elbow deep inside what has to be the most poorly designed engine I’ve ever had the misfortune of dealing with. The shittiness of the AMC V8 is severely jeopardizing The Autopian’s future outlook; that’s fitting, in some ways. Anyway, it’s not solely my frustration that’s leading me to write this article; the AMC 360 truly is a poorly-designed motor, as I will now show].
You may know American Motors Corporation as builder of the greatest Jeep engine of all time, the AMC inline-six, a motor that came primarily in 232 cubic-inc, 258 cubic-inch, and 4.0-liter displacements. This long iron-block motor, found in pretty much every Jeep between 1970 and 2000 — was absolutely unstoppable (If you want to be “in” with the Jeep crowd, just say “That foar leeter is bulletproof I tellya” anywhere near a gas station) thanks to its simple design, ease of serviceability, and plentiful low-RPM torque.
It’s surprising, then, that the same company that built that amazing off-road motor developed the AMC V8, a contraption whose only reliability was liability, and that was ubiquitous in AMC products for decades. The thing went in damn near everything as the “step-up” from the six cylinder, even though, really, it was a huge step down. Let’s take a look at some machines burdened with hauling around this iron menace.
Probably the best-known example is the Jeep Grand Wagoneer, which got the AMC V8 as an option over the inline-six:
The AMC Gremlin also offered the V8 if you didn’t want the standard six:
AMC Javelin? Yup, AMC V8 option:
Jeep CJ-5? Sure, you could get this motor instead of the trusty 258:
Jeepster Commando? Yup, 258 standard, 304 optional:
AMG Pacer: Oh yeah, standard six, 360 optional:
That huge anchor weighed down the front-end of lots of AMC products, including — sadly — my 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle, which I worked on this past weekend:
Sadly, some non-AMC products also got this awful motor, including Malcolm Bricklin’s Canadian creation, the SV-1:
I’m fairly sure fellow AMC-lovers are going to come out of the woodwork to defend the AMC V8, which came primarily in three variants: 304, 360, and 401. “Mine has driven over 200,000 miles,” some will say. “This guy just doesn’t know how to wrench,” others will claim. “It was a torque, stout motor,” many will cry. “Some of these have been built into highly successful race motors” others will assert. And to them I say: Wake up.
I was a sheep like you once, having fallen head-over-heels for the American Motors way of life. The soulful designs; the charmingly weird blend of Ford, GM, and Chrysler parts; the generally-stout hardware; and just the bold, Smallest-Of-The-American-Automakers rough-and-tumble way of doing things. Like you, I used to see AMC vehicles, especially Jeeps, through rose colored glasses. Hell, I currently own seven AMC-era Jeeps, and I’ve owned many more in my past! I even visited Kenosha a few years ago solely to pay homage to AMC, and I recently snuck into the old American Center former headquarters in Southfield, Michigan. I’m a diehard AMC fan, believe me.
But I have no choice but to call a boat-anchor a boat-anchor, because that’s exactly what the AMC V8 is. Yes, as much as it pains me to admit it, the engine powering the beloved Jeep Grand Wagoneer and my badass 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle is one of the worst powertrains in Jeep history. Here’s why.
The Oil Pump Literally Eats Itself
Let’s start with what’s absolutely ruined my experience with my 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle, a beautiful machine dripping with soul, and one that I should love, but — thanks to this motor — I actually deride.
Of all the things a motor has to do to survive, right up at the top when listed in order of importance is “make sure metals don’t rub against each other.” The way engines typically make sure bearings don’t rub against journals and camshafts don’t wear against lifters is they put a little cushion of oil between moving metal parts. Oil is the lifeblood of any internal combustion engine, which is why the AMC 360’s lubrication problems are such a big deal.
I ran my engine last summer and heard a loud noise at the top end, making me think that perhaps there was some kind of oiling issue. I removed the valve covers and, sure enough: bone dry. There was no 10W-30 making it up top.
Why was this? Well, the oil pump on the AMC 360 is driven by the distributor; this is fairly common among old engines. So, to see what was going on, I bought a priming tool, chucked it up in my high-torque handheld drill, and spun that pump at 500 RPM through the hole where my distributor once was. Thirty seconds in, I saw no oil flow to the top end. A minute in: Nothing. Two minutes in: A tumbleweed rolls across my rocker arms. Sonuva bitch.
I removed my oil pump from the bottom of my motor and re-packed it with vaseline, as is the recommended procedure to ensure that it primes properly. With the oil filter off, I turned the pump and, sure enough, oil poured out of the oil filter adapter. And yet, with the filter back on, no matter how much I spun that pump, nothing got to the top end.
Worse, I noticed very little resistance on that drill when I spun it clockwise (which I’m fairly sure is the right direction). So while there appears to be some amount of oil flow, there’s very little oil pressure — the fresh 10W-30 appears to be flowing freely…somewhere… instead of to the top of the motor. Something ain’t right.
The bearing clearances on this motor looked fine the last time I checked them, and there was no sludge in the pan. Plus, the oil pickup tube looked fine. And what’s weird is that I did an oil pressure test while the engine was idling and read over 40 PSI while cold using a mechanical gauge; that’s not amazing, but not horrible, either. So I’m confused why there’s no oil getting to the top of the engine, though at the same time, deep down, I know what the issue is.
One of the most common failure points on an AMC 360 V8 is the oil pump itself. American Motors engineers found a clever way to integrate a number of items into the aluminum timing cover at the front of the engine. That cover not only fulfills its purpose of enclosing the timing chain, but it also houses the water pump, distributor, fuel pump, oil filter, and oil pump. I’d consider it clever integration if it hadn’t been so poorly executed.
As you can see in the image above, the oil pump consists of two steel gears riding in an aluminum housing. As is probably unsurprising to many, the result of this setup is that the gears wear into the aluminum housing, and over time, the distance between the oil pump gears and aluminum part of the pump increases, causing a severe reduction in oil pressure. What you end up with is my situation — pumping action is severely reduced, and while there may be oil pressure when cold, you can forget about it when hot. And lack of oil pressure when hot is a very, very bad thing — it will lead to failure of your rod and main bearings, camshaft lobes, rings and cylinders, and much more. Basically, the engine will destroy itself in short order.
Lack of oil flow is a terrible thing, and the fact that the oil pump on the AMC 360 is basically a wear item is pathetic.
And to be clear, when I say the oil pump is a wear item, I’m referring to the entire timing chain cover. That whole aluminum piece that houses the distributor, fuel pump, oil pump, and oil filter adapter. The thing whose replacement requires one to remove the crankshaft pulley using a special puller tool. Of course, you also have to take out the radiator, fan, unbolt the whole accessory drive — it’s a nightmare (more on that job in a bit). And when you’re done, you get to drop $250 on a new timing chain cover, and even then, many forum-goers complain about performance even with the new pump and cover.
Even When The Pump Works, The Rear Cylinders Still Don’t Get Enough Oil
The sad thing is, even if the AMC V8’s timing chain cover and oil pump cover haven’t worn themselves out yet, the engine still may suffer from lubrication issues. That’s because the block’s internal oil passages are designed in such a way that, when the engine is run hard, the rearmost cylinders can be starved for oil. Here, let Great Lakes 4×4 member Leanz break it down for you:
AMC V8’s are notorious for having oil system problems. The oilpump housing is the same as the timing cover so when your oil pressure starts to drop when a oilpump rebuild kit will in most cases do you no good at all. This bypass is for the lack of oil at the 7 – 8 rod and main bearings. The oil system flows the oil from front to back, and under quick acceration, leads to lack of oil in a VERY critical area.
The bypass consists of an AN fitting inside the intake valley between the lifters for number 6 and 8. Drill and tap for the fitting in to the oil passage.
The bypass, shown above, is a fairly common modification, though it’s no easy job. It requires one to remove an absurdly heavy cast iron intake manifold, along with everything that mounts to it — and that’s a lot of stuff, especially on a smog-era vehicle like my 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle.
It’s Really Not That Easy To Work On
You might think that an old engine like the AMC 360 has a huge advantage over modern cars when it comes to serviceability, but I don’t know that that’s true. My 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle was built right in the middle of the smog era, meaning it’s outfitted with more vacuum lines, air pumps, and other emissions-reduction equipment than you can even imagine. Add the fact that my Jeep is a high-end machine with power steering, air conditioning, and cruise control, and the rather enormous engine bay begins to shrink, yielding — as Chrysler’s packaging would often say when I worked there as an intern — “a basket of snakes” or, my favorite, “ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag.”
Even simple things aren’t that easy to service. The rearmost spark plugs, especially the one on the passenger’s side by the heater core, are a pain in the arse to access:
And like I said earlier, replacing that timing chain cover is an awful job. One that I will likely have to do soon. (Dammit). The cover is wedged between the water pump and engine block, and damn near everything is bolted to it. To remove that cover will require dismantling the whole front of the engine.
And to dismantle the front of the engine means removing the giant harmonic balancer on the crankshaft — a job that requires a special tool and, critically, space. To get that space, I’d have to remove the fan on the water pump and take out the radiator. It’s all just a huge pain in the butt.
It Makes No Power And Sucks Gas Like You Wouldn’t Believe
Here’s the thing. Many, many great engines have achilles heels. The unstoppable Buick 3800 V6 has intake manifold problems. The beloved Cummins 12-valve has the Killer Dowel Pin issue. AMC’s own inline-six — one of the greatest engines of all time — tends to crack cylinder heads if it overheats even once. But those engines generally don’t require as much work to fix their maladies, and their fixes tend to yield a lifetime of reliable service. What’s more, none of those engines are as inefficient as the AMC V8.
The 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer — the last vehicle to use the AMC 360 in the U.S. market– was a 4,400 pound behemoth whose AMV V8 made 144 horsepower.
144.
That’s less horsepower than this 2011 Hyundai Elantra:
That Hyundai, by the way, scores 32 MPG combined. And while you might expect it to offer better fuel economy given its relatively diminutive size, newer powertrain and transmission technology, slipperier body, etc., I bet you wouldn’t expect it to offer nearly three times the Grand Wagoneer’s combined fuel economy of 11. Three times.
Okay that’s still not fair due to the size difference, but let’s compare the new Grand Wagoneer, which literally weighs one ton more than its predecessor. It makes over three times as much horsepower at 471 HP and scores roughly 33% better fuel economy (15 MPG versus 11).
Obviously, comparing modern cars to old ones is silly, but that’s not the point. The point is that the poorly-designed AMC 360 has singlehandedly ruined my relationship with my beautiful 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle. I should be cruising down Woodward in style, listening to that three-speed General Motors TH350 shift through those three gears, enjoying the gentle rumble of that V8, and looking over that distinctive hood. I should be living the dream, but because of the AMC 360, I’ve been dealing with the Amber Heard of automobiles — something so beautiful, and yet so troubled.
Oh, David. This is a disappointment. There are a lot of myths here, and some unfairness.
The oil pumps don’t wear like that, except in cases of severe neglect. I’ve pulled open 200k engines that had minimal wear on the housing. By default, there will be a film of oil preventing wear, unless that oil is neglected and becomes abrasive. Steel gears in an aluminum housing have been ubiquitous for decades, so it’s clearly not inherently a problem.
And the valley oil line is a “fix” cooked up out of a complete misunderstanding of the problem. Drag racers in the 70’s were turning 7000 RPM, and frequently finding the rear main bearing worn or destroyed. They diagnosed the problem as lack of flow, and latched on to the line. It addressed the symptom- now when the engine blew, the rear main looked just as bad as the rest, but it didn’t address the problem at all. The real issue isn’t flow capacity of the pump or even the galleys. It’s actually a lack of adequate drainback. In completely stock form, the heads and valley cannot drain back as much oil as the pump produces above about 5000 RPM. That lead to an empty pan, and as the rear main is the furthest point of real failure from the pump, it spun almost immediately. I can connect you with a former engineer who raced his own AMX in SCCA B/Production and who found the drain back issue on a dyno in Kenosha in the ‘60’s, if you’d like to publish a story on it.
To the unfairness: In the time of vacuum lines and carburetors, most of the performance and emissions complaints you have were standard across the US industry. AMC and then Chrysler just kept those antiquated systems in use so late because the Wagoneer was on borrowed time, but still immensely profitable. And the 360 is a pain in the ass in that engine bay, but that is mostly to do with that engine bay being designed around Kaiser’s I6 back in the stone age. The Buick V8’s are equally miserable to work on stuck way down inside that deep, wide engine bay, but they didn’t tend to have the AC, and cruise, and vacuum controls in the way. An AMC V8 in a passenger car is a walk in the park for serviceability.
I knew I’d get some pushback from AMC fans, and certainly the vast majority of 360s last a long time without issues. But the reality is that oil pump wear is a CHRONIC problem. Search it on the internet and you’ll find scores of cases of low oil pressure. That’s simply unacceptable; I’ll deal with intake manifold or water pump issues or even head issues, but issues of bearing lubrication? That’s just not okay, and I’m gonna call that poor design out every time.
Also, this is hardly a defense of AMC’s engineering: “In completely stock form, the heads and valley cannot drain back as much oil as the pump produces above about 5000 RPM. That lead to an empty pan, and as the rear main is the furthest point of real failure from the pump.” But I will grant you that 5,000 RPM sustained is just a bad idea in general, so I probably should have mentioned in my piece that this mod really isn’t necessary for most drivers. So I’ll admit fault there.
As for the emissions equipment: Yeah, that was standard for many big American engines. And yeah, lots of other American V8s were hard to work on. But just because other engines sucked doesn’t mean the AMC V8 didn’t!
Look, I’ve had my fair share of nicely-running AMC V8s. Usually they DO work great, but even then, they’re underpowered, thirsty, often overrun with emissions equipment, hard to work on (in SJs), and yeah, in the back of my mind I’m worried about oil pump failure. That’s just not cool.
I generally agree with most of your opinions, but yes, that is a solid defense of AMC engeneering. the factory put the redline right around 5000 rpm. If anyone buys a vehicle with a stock engine, and then expects that engine to survive 1500 or 2000 RPM above redline without having to make some changes. That is not the engineers fault. that is the fault of the person revving the thing to death. If you want a race engine, build a race engine. also, Oiling issues are abundant on many early smog V8 engines. Cadillac 500s blow up regularly at less than 5000 RPM. 351 Clevelands have some oiling issues (if I remember correctly it is actually excessive drain back in the Cleveland.) all of these can be solved for high performance applications, but in my Grandmas Fleetwood, she wasn’t revving past about 3000 ever. there are still plenty of things to fault, but as has already been said, most of those can be said of most engines saddles with early smog tech.
Thank you. The AMC V8 has it’s share of limitations, but you’d never run into the critical oiling issue in it’s intended application – low RPM passenger car use.
The wear in the combined timing chain cover wouldn’t be an issue if the part was readily available as a replacement. Most people are more than willing to toss worn out parts on Chevys and Fords, where parts are plentiful and rebuilding isn’t worth it, but AMC guys (and Pontiac and Buick etc) are stuck rebuilding the parts produced 50+ years ago since there isn’t the same level of aftermarket support. The core design probably could have been better, but you’re living with the limitations of design choices, development costs, and manufacturing processes from the 1950s, so on a long enough timeline this sort of thing will crop up.
I’ve never had the privilege/misfortune of owning an AMC V8. My AMCs were a yellow ’74 Hornet two-door sedan with a 232 six and a beige ’84 Cherokee with a 150 four. Both of those powerplants were absolutely bulletproof!
I sometimes toy with the idea of scrounging up another Hornet for my amusement, mostly because it’s a car I am capable of actually working on myself. I think I’ll avoid getting one with a 360 like the plague based on your very detailed and passionate argument.
“The 1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer — the last vehicle to use the AMC 360 in the U.S. market– was a 4,400 pound behemoth whose AMV V8 made 144 horsepower.”
A reminder that in 1990 Toyota Released the 80 series with an old (VERY old) 3F-E motor, a holdover from the 60 series…which was a holdover from the 40, which was based on a chevy from the 20’s. Even that engine had more power (155) than the 360, and with a lot fewer cubes (256 vs 360). And NOBODY thought that was enough engine for the 4600 lb 80 series.
Well David, I truly sympathize with your engine oiling issue. it sucks, that’s for sure.
And if I may offer a bit of advice, I have purchased many used cars over the years, some were DD some were collectables , and the one thing I always did before buying any of them is that I obsessively researched the hell out of all the vehicles looking for common failures/issues. This has saved my ass so many times from buying shit piles.
Stick with the I-6’s, they’re rock solid, the V-8’s are crap, the V-8’s are useful when hanging on a chain, swinging from a crane to demo small buildings! 😉
So… electrify the Golden Eagle? I know you have your plans with the FC, but this would sort of kill two birds… Additionally, you get rid of the automatic.
a guy could install a 1,2, or 3UZ-FE toyota and trans of choice, put all this behind him, and address other aspects of jeepnesss, unhealthy land rover fetishes (ahem!), aaaaand who knows what-all
This isn’t an ‘old car’ motor. It’s a ‘malaise era’ motor. By definition, American engines of this period were amalgamations of penny pinching and poor understanding of ICE design. Truly efficient ICE V8 power was only really perfected in the last 20 years. It took computer modeling and combustion chamber research to get what we have today. The stuff you see at the end of AMC, is ‘good enough’ econobox engineering.
That is not to say you can’t make one of these machines sing. You most definitely can. But you are going to have to re-engineer some of the piss poor design choices those guys in the 1970’s left you.
In my opinion, that should not dissuade you though. I kind of like the AMC 327, despite the fact that it is inferior to the Chevy of the same displacement in almost every way.
Take it for what it’s worth, put external oiling solutions on it, and make it your own, David. You are the guy who made a mail Jeep into a rock crawler, right?
It’s time to reframe your attitude and expectations. Let your inner creativity blossom.
>I kind of like the AMC 327, despite the fact that it is inferior to the Chevy of the same displacement in almost every way.
People forget just how advanced the Chevy small bock was when it first came out. It was designed with the learned lessons from three previous V8 design efforts (Cadillac, Buick, and Pontiac) in the preceding five years integrated into it. AMC’s V8 was their first – and only – shot at V8 engine design, so the odds of them getting everything right (or nearly right, since even the SBC wasn’t perfect at first) was pretty low. It’s honestly impressive that AMC’s V8 was as good as it was considering contemporaries like the Ford Y-block and Buick Nailhead had much more limited development.
> AMC’s V8 was their first – and only – shot at V8 engine design
Mmm. I think it was their second go-round. Their first rather heavy V8 (possibly with Kaiser roots) was introduced in the mid 50s and served for about ten years, making it into full-size Jeeps briefly. Then came the more modern thin-wall V8, which begat the taller-deck variation, considered by some to be a third generation, that includes the 304s, 360s, and 401s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMC_V8_engine#American_Motors_Corporation_'Rambler_V8'_(1956–1967)
https://www.allpar.com/threads/amc-v8-engines.229904/
Once over on that other website, I described 70s American cars as trying to meet the emissions standards of the 80s with leftover engines from the 60s. And if there were new engine designs, they were dogshit, like the Chevy 305, Pontiac 301, this damn thing.
Their saving grace, by now? A lot of them are great cars that take engine swaps really well.
Let me get this straight. You replaced a terrible V8 engine with another of the same while you knew a legendary six would fit right in and be still appropriate?
You apparently are not so up on cultural references, so might I suggest you Google “Stockholm Syndrome”. 😉
Those engineers were still thinking about the old 195.6, where the oil light could be treated like a “Service Engine Soon” warning and keep right on ticking.
Your struggles with this engine is oh so familiar to me. Sometimes I’m glad they don’t make things like they used to, only when it applies to fixing instead of driving your own pride and joy.
The timing cover is very similar to the one on a 1985 Olds Ninety Eight I used to have. The Olds still had the nylon timing gears!
Still do not understand the reason for bolting everything to the timing cover as was common for the period. It certainly made any job like this frustrating.
Can relate to this. I’m currently looking at a coolant leak on the intake manifold of my ‘92 Roadmaster wagon and I thought “No sweat!” Wrong. GM basically plumbed everything into the intake manifold so I have to disassemble like half the top end.
I went through this with a die hard FSJ buddy years back when I had bought an 83 Cherokee WT off of him. That one had a tired 232 in it. I told him I was either going to throw in a 4.0 or do an LS swap. He swore up and down AMC V8 was the way to go. Couldn’t see it then and I can’t see it now.
If he was going to swap for an AMC V8, honestly I would sooner rebuild the 232.
PLEASE do a dossier on the Buick 3800. I beg of you.
Oh man that Javelin is so, so pretty. I’ve mentioned this before but my aunt’s white with red interior Javelin is the car that started by love of cars and of red interiors.
I’d be curious to know the real reason these wear out and loose prime, because ‘steel gears in an aluminum housing’ isn’t a de facto bad design. In fact I have the oil pump for a modern Volvo 13L diesel engine sitting under my desk, a part that is designed to have a 1 million mile service life, and it has steel gears in an aluminum housing. They work just fine.
At first I thought the pictured diagram was showing that AMC had done the unthinkable and installed the oil filter on the suction side of the pump, but looking closer that doesn’t seem to be the case – the filter is between the pump outlet and the main gallery, as it should be. I went on to wonder if the oil pump was maybe situated too high, losing prime and therefore starting dry every time, causing wear. Well, maybe, but most modern oil pumps are driven off the crank and thus are similarly up above the oil level in the pan, so I don’t think that is it.
The only notable difference I can see between the design of the AMC pump and the aforementioned Volvo D13 pump is that the pump gear shafts are only supported on the top side of the pump – they do not pilot into holes on the filter pedestal. Maybe if those shafts get sloppy the oil pressure tends to push the gear mesh apart, causing wear on the housing and loss of volumetric efficiency? They’re pretty stout looking shafts, but stranger things have happened.
Maybe the grade of aluminum those covers are made out of is too soft? That would be a typical penny-pinching self-own by a company in perpetual financial dire straits.
I was about to opine that maybe the gears were too helical, causing too much thrust force and thus wear against the thrust bearing surface, but I see from the picture that these are straight spur gears. No dice there.
I think I’m down to material spec or suction tube design, or both. Maybe the pumps were designed with too-loose tolerances from the get-go.
Whatever the flaw is, I conclude it is ‘in the details’ (material specs, tolerances, oil tubing/drilling diameters) and not a flaw in the overall architecture of the engine – save for the serviceability nightmare caused by the too-integrated timing cover. But as you say, an oil pump *shouldn’t* be a service item over the lifetime of an engine.
Lack of maintenance is the cause. There will always be a film of oil present that should be protecting the aluminum from wear. When the oil is ancient and full of grit or has no film strength left is when the problem starts.
And you’re correct, iron gears in an aluminum housing isn’t an inherently bad design. I can’t think of an engine designed in the last 30 years that uses anything else, though they are usually crank-driven pumps nowadays.
Are there any alternatives to that oil pump? Aftermarket options?
Sure. We dry sumped one of our desert racing Honchos. We also stroked it out to 454 inches. It had tons of torque.
If you’re interested in performance, they can be a pretty good base to build off of. However, if you’re interested in a relatively stock engine, I struggle to think of any smog era V8 that’s worth a damn in stock form. Almost all the automakers resorted to low compression nightmares while they found themselves again.
Smog 460s and 454 had plenty of Torque. Just not HP or good gas mileage.
That can be fixed with better heads, cam and fuel injection
I had a 460 in a 1992 Club Wagon XLT. We moved cross-country in it, loaded to the gills, towing our camper trailer also loaded to the gills, and that 460 did not break a sweat for 5500 miles worth of Great American Road Trip. One of the smoothest and most reliable engines I’ve ever owned, with enough torque to pull your house off its foundation.
I learned something today. I had no idea Bricklin used AMC engines for the first year. I’ve seen two SV-1s in person, and they both had Ford 351 Windsors.
So did you fix it or are you waiting for the part to come in? You’re going to the junkyard for the part are you?
“Amber Heard of automobiles” haha WOW!
Yeah someone’s been reading the gossip websites in his free time LOL
LoL, between running the show here, rescuing a wayward Cherokee, selling of the Red FC, hanging out in Walmart parking lots, researching the AMC madness and wrenching his broken Lil heart out, you think he has time to read gossip?
I’m just shocked to see a pop culture reference out of DT.
I hope the Jezzie Army hasn’t followed us here.
We tend to romanticize these old lumps, but the truth is most of them were dogs with major design flaws. Someday, I will run you through the one engine that’s the WORST ever made, the 70s Benz diesel. Every possible bit of engineering stupidity is on that turd, and the fatal flaws are kind of works or art in their own right. Yes yes…2.3 million mile taxi cab. Bullshit and hype. It makes the 360 look like a good engine.
Did David just make a pop culture reference?
That is just pure excellence in writing.
While I agree the 360 was a huge pile of shit. I do like the 390s and 401s. Where the worthless 360 had not only cast pistons so were its rods and crankshaft. On the big brother 390 and 401 all those same parts were forged. I worked for 2 different AMC factory off-road racing teams. James Garner’s American International Racing where we raced AMC sedans and La Paz Racing where we raced Honchos. We used the 390/401 engines and there just were never engine problems.
I seem to remember that the 401-equipped Matador set a cop-car course record at the CHP circa 1974, that took two decades to be bested. Officers McCord and Milner weren’t letting you get away that easy.
A few weeks ago my daughter and her fiance couldn’t find anything worth watching on the streaming services and decided to go retro, watching ‘The Great Escape.’ Before that she’d only seen James Garner in ‘The Notebook,’ ‘8 Simple Rules,’ and reruns of ‘The Rockford Files.’
She was shocked to discover Garner was a big-time racer in the ’60s and ’70s. I told her about how Garner and Steve McQueen were neighbors and both raced when they weren’t acting. She wasn’t all that impressed with McQueen but said Garner was a hunk in his youth.
Rockford Files is the best. Holds up today waaay better than it’s contemporaries.
Garner extensively discussed his racing in his biography.
If you like The Rockford Files, you should check out Nichols. James Garner even stated it was his favorite series he ever worked on.
Saltier: you need to show her Grand Prix.
So what are you going to swap in there? I think the Mercedes 560 V8 would be cool… in some alternate universe that could’ve happened.
I do not say this lightly, but… LS swap?
If not, is the 5.9L Dodge motor worth anything as a swap candidate?
I can’t get myself to do it.
Believe me, I feel you. For 20+ years I’ve been having people tell me to swap a V8 into my I-6 Mustang, it just doesn’t feel right.
Still, doesn’t mean you gotta stick within limitations. T5 transmission replacing the C4 helped massively, and the 2x2bbl Weber carb swap I’m working on should wake her up completely.
C’mon, the 5.9 would be so much cooler and more satisfying to fire up…
Well, then you’re choosing to stick with an unworkable combo you hate. If downsizing to a 4.0 isn’t an option, seriously reconsider, if not an LS, then just a regular carbed SBC. You already have a TH-350 transmission in there, right? Make this thing drivable, reliable, repairable, upgradeable, and just drive it. There’s no upside to consigning an otherwise swell Jeep to the hell of an objectively bad engine when you have so many better options. The Eagle deserves better. Don’t curse it to continue limping along with its unfortunate birth defect.
Exactly. this is not some sacred object whose integrity must remain intact. CJs and YJs have been getting swapped for ages.
The bellhousing might not be the same, but I agree that a small block chevy would be an excellent option. Cheap as dirt, reliable, loads of aftermarket parts, and plenty of power to move that size of a rig around. Do it, David!
That and the fact that you can get spare parts on virtually every street corner. I think you might be able to get SBC parts at banks.
I was thinking the whole time why not swap for the modern (eh…late 90s, 2000s) 4.0 I6, not sure if plausible, but it has more horsepower and likely better fuel mileage, and while maybe not keeping it a classic, still maintains the AMC lineage. My pig TJ weighing over 4400 lbs (how in the h*ll did I get it to weigh so much?) averaged nearly 16 mpg Maryland to Ohio and back!
If it’s an automatic it should be a TH-400, and it’s a special AMC one that a Chevy won’t just bolt up to.
DT, the same amount of work you are going to do in making the v8 run like crap while still having an Achilles heel to kill it and you could source a good 4.0 or sbc and actually have a reliable machine you can be proud to pass on to a new owner.
Marry to 4L I6’s into a 8.0 V12!
I like the way you think.
With only 144hp and 11mpg, I’m sure there is at least oooone engine you’d be comfortable swapping it out for. Look deep within yourself, David, and find that answer!
Rather than the Mopar, go for the original wagoneer V8 option, the Gladiator aka, the Buick 350 V8. Unique, AMC history, torquey, and when tuned correctly relatively fuel efficient. I’ve had a 74 buick with one since ’99 and loved it the whole time, except when going to the parts store because they have no idea what you’re talking about when you tell them it’s not a chevy.
Also TA performance had plenty of hotrod parts and the 3800 V6 is just that 8 minus 2 cylinders so plenty durable.
I agree. My J3000 has the Buick 350 and it is a great engine.
Swap in something like a 4-53T. Somewhat unique, not as over done as LS (not shitting on the LS, it’s fantastic) and cool as shit.
The best Jeep I ever had was a CJ5 with a Chevy small block. It just worked. Now I have a different CJ5 with the Buick v6 and the damn thing won’t run. I should have kept the small block.
https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/engines/swap-guides/chevy-buick-gm/fsj-swap/
The kind folks at Novak will get you everything you need. Join the cult of the SBC, become one of us.
David, I was thinking about this last night on my drive home. There’s got to be a company out there, or even one guy, that is making steel shim kits for these so that they don’t eat into the timing cover.
If there isn’t, I might be able to work with you to get something put together. You’ve got my email, I sent in a craigslist link about a Jeep Commando about a week ago.
I vote Cummins.
I understand that usually the problem with a 5.9 swap is all the extra weight over the front suspension. It sounds like that would be a lateral move in this case.
That’s the excuse for Aluminum Heads and Intake.
It will run better, too than the OEM cast iron
That’s all I could think while reading this. Surely a Jeep forum somewhere has a rundown of each and every part and tool necessary for the job.
Yes. Putting in a Chrysler 360 would be poetic to the point that Iacocca would approve.
David, you know full well that comparing it to a 20 year newer compact engine isn’t a fair comparison…
However, your point still stands compared to 1991 F150 with I6: same HP with 1L less displacement!
Particularly good choice of comparison there, with the vast difference in reliability.
There’s always a trade-off with power, efficiency, and reliability. That the 360 manages to be on the wrong side for all three is kind of impressive.
“My 1979 Jeep Cherokee Golden Eagle was built right in the middle of the smog era, meaning it’s outfitted with more vacuum lines, air pumps, and other emissions-reduction equipment than you can even imagine.”
To be fair, that’s at least not unique to only AMC-V8 powered vehicles of the era.
My ’81 Z28 (305/4-Speed car with AC) looks similarly absurd underhood, especially considering half of the Quadrajet is computer controlled.
When I installed the longtubes, I removed the smog pump and the spiderweb of piping/tubing that encompassed. That helped, but only a bit.
Those can be removed, no doubt. But it just adds to the awfulness.
It’s certainly overwhelming at first. Once you know where everything goes – more or less – it’s not so bad.
I expected the Camaro to be easy to work on because “old car” and was immediately greeted by spark plugs easiest to change through the wheelwell.
You were thinking of a ’71, not an ’81.
OK, now I’m really confused. My 79 CJ7 had the 304 and was very trouble-free for me even though I had no idea of the vehicle’s history.
On top of that, it routinely passed inspection despite having little to no emission-related vacuum lines, etc. under the hood. (It failed mostly because shops didn’t know what to make of the independent dual exhaust with twin cats or the fact that the fuel filler neck had been drilled out years before, but that was easily handled)
The 258 in my Scrambler, however, was a real pain to pass emissions inspections despite having a maze of vacuum lines more difficult than a black and white Where’s Waldo book.
and 258s made essentially no power, and are known to have low oil pressure. (I have a jeep with a 258, and I am swapping in a 360 which is sitting in my garage now, just waiting for me to actually have time.
Vegas, I would love to follow this. Will you be documenting this somewhere?
Well, I have a spectacularly bad, and inconsistent TikTok account (same username) with sporadic and poorly edited jeep content. But I definitely wouldn’t follow me.